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Post by Robert C. on Jul 4, 2008 4:45:15 GMT
wetdog, I'm completely unfamiliar with 'Sour Grapes.' I'm not a Larry David fanatic or zealot or whatever, but I love this show.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 0:07:41 GMT
I think that's a pretty funny scene, even though it's clearly not the work of Larry David, and it's not indicative of the first seven seasons, night and day difference in fact. At that post-David point in Seinfeld, the writers (Jerry included) were trying to put their own touch on the show. And although David might not have written each and every episode in the first 7 seasons, he was still head writer, creator of the show, and had jurisdiction over anything and everything that was in the script. When he left, guys like Larry Charles and Jerry Seinfeld changed the formula(quite dramatically). Jerry helped Larry David create the show, yes, but it was David's idea -- that's why he wrote every major episode in the narrative arc and "returned" to write the finale and "The Envelopes." No one else could write such crucial episodes in the narrative such as these b/c it was LARRY DAVID'S STORY!1! He had to write them. B/c of the fact the show is about "Jerry", and bears his name, ppl tend to think that it was his idea. But I assure you that David's leaving would be the equivalent of David Chase leaving The Sopranos. Again: to what argument are these supposed to be counterpoints? Actually, I'm very proud of my ability to notice and then note substantial changes in elements as fundamental to all drama as character, pace and tone in my favourite TV show without resorting to plagiarising six sequential words from an open-source encyclopaedia. Yes, I'm that observant and articulate. Anyway, three things: 1) The show did not change beyond recognition. Fact. Give it up. 2) Larry Charles left the writing staff in 1995. 3) The emphasis on everyday minutiae was sidelined well before Larry David left the show. Comedy doesn't necessarily have to make sense. Or be psychologically realistic. Or be themed around everyday minutiae. Or be overseen by Larry David. That storyline is supposed to be nonsensical. And it's funny. Like Jerry letting his emotions out ("I don't think more flan is the answer!"). And Lloyd Braun and George competing as computer salesmen because Frank saw " The Net... with the girl from the bus." It certainly doesn't make sense when Jerry wakes up on the subway and the fat guy is sitting there naked, either. Nor does Larry David himself being a superhero/lawyer. Realism was not quite the show's most defining element. But yes, it became more cartoony, the sense of reality became more elastic. Yes, this happened most rapidly over the last two seasons. But I don't necessarily think that's bad. It was still intelligent and still hilarious. And the reason I brought up Sour Grapes is that it strikes me as obviously faulty reasoning to conclude that the show wouldn't have entered a decline if David had stayed onboard, given the fact that the film he, in part, left the show in order to write is notoriously dreadful (haven't seen it myself). He even pokes fun at it in Curb Your Enthusiasm. There's every possibility the decline was coming whether he left or not. Maybe it's preferrable for it to have shifted gears a bit than it would've been if it had just deteriorated along the same lines as it had excelled. I dunno. There's not much to say, really. I know everything you're telling me. It's a matter of taste. I love all 9 seasons. Yes. That's something that became very prominent during the last two seasons, when the writing staff was comrised of people who'd been fans of the show for years. We got jokes about older jokes all the time. I like that quality. No, I've seen every episode many times, and would seldom go more than a couple of days now without watching it. I never said the show went to crap before Larry David left. I said it never went to crap. And I LOVE Curb Your Enthusiasm, but even for all its differences it's a pale shadow of Seinfeld.
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 0:13:08 GMT
Seriously, I really think we should keep almost all discussion of the last two seasons out of this thread. Let's do this right.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 0:16:48 GMT
But what about the real fans?
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 0:16:58 GMT
1) The show did not change beyond recognition. Fact. Give it up. I don't think you've seen very much of the show, in fact, I know you haven't. The point you're trying to argue isn't even worth debate. It's a given. A fact.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 0:24:19 GMT
! I know what must've happened! Season 8 must've come back in a different timeslot! And when you tuned in every week to catch it at the same old time, you thought the show had changed beyond recognition. But that was actually Friends or Mad About You or America's Dumbest Criminals or something. You silly goose!
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 0:36:45 GMT
Seriously, compare, lets say...."The Contest" to "Anytown U.S.A." In the latter we still have the same characters who retain some of their attributes (not even a majority of them), but it's now become a show that with an amazingly flimsy plot and narrative when compared to a MASTERPIECE, A WORK OF ART, such as The Contest. It has to rely on really quirky and zany happenings that quite frankly border on fantasy-like. Night and day difference from 1-7.
That's the difference--in rejoinder with the fact that the show entered a illogical fantasy like state--the drop in quality, and you've already admitted it so I don't know you're still arguing. The drop in quality was exponential. Fact.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 0:56:20 GMT
Seinfeld had a long way to fall before it became anything less than excellent. So admitting (and I did so upfront, it's not a position I've 'come around to' or anything) that there's a decline in quality through seasons 8 and 9 doesn't mean much. It doesn't follow that they're not still excellent. What I'm arguing is the relative quality of those episodes. They are worse: worse than the best sitcom of all time at its absolute peak. So what? And I'm casting some much needed reasonable doubt on the magnitude of the significance (not its mere existence) of Larry David's departure.
"The Serenity Now" is the episode's title. Obviously it's not as good as "The Contest". Few episodes are.
Remember, I said the decline in quality between seasons 8 and 9 was greater than that between seasons 7 and 8. I could pick plenty of episodes from season 8 and rank them above episodes from previous seasons. Season 9 it's harder to do that with.
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 1:05:49 GMT
Well, I don't know how to explain to you that the entire premise for the show is Larry David's. I thought everyone was rather privy to that fact. I guess not.
But imagine if you had an idea for something REALLY, REALLY, fucking unique, and you hire a few guys who have similar interests as yourself and can help you carry it out. In time, the project begins to grow legs of its own (naturally) and the art takes on meaning that you hadn't necessarily intended, but tis the nature of art. That's what happened with 8 and 9. It wasn't necessarily what David had in mind when originally conceived the show, nor would he have written anything similar, but ya, it's still pretty good in it's own right. Obviously, I fucking hate it and find it quite neanderthal and simplistic as compared to the deep, complex, nuanced and absorbing story lines from 1-7.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 1:18:04 GMT
I read your first sentence there and was about to respond "the show is more than a premise", but then you went and said that yourself. So yeah, I know the premise was David's, but I also agree with your second paragraph which renders that fact somewhat insignificant.
Do you agree (hate it all though you may) that the 7-8 decline is less pronounced than the 8-9 decline?
That's where I stray from the accepted wisdom that David's departure was the death of the show, and contend instead that a decline was imminent anyway, and that his departure merely to some extent determined the course of that decline. But that's conjecture.
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 1:30:27 GMT
I pretty much agree with everything you just said. David wrote the first cpl of episodes of 7, but turned over the bulk of the season to other writers, a sign that he was already on the way out. Then he came back to write the season finale "The Envelopes," a crucial pt in the shows narrative b/c Susan dies. Without David, 7 was already heading into the decline--not so much a decline, just different, very different--compared to what the show had previously been. So yes, "a decline was imminent anyway, and that his departure merely to some extent determined the course of that decline. " As evidenced by Curb Your Enthusiasm, David obviously had ideas to do a show quite similar to the style of the first two seasons of Seinfeld, but at that point, Seinfeld could not invert back to it's roots and start over at the beginning, so to speak. So David took his new-old vision to HBO.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 1:35:50 GMT
What three-season run would you see as the peak years?
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 1:43:29 GMT
Well, I think obviously that 4-6 (with an exception of the last few episodes of 6) is when everything began to galvanize and crystallize into what would become known as SEINFELD proper, but I have a special fondness for the early yrs as well, some as my absolute favorites such as Jerry's "excuse-rolodex" are from the first season. Plus, those first cpl of seasons really resemble Curb much more than the middle yrs of vintage SEINFELD.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 1:48:56 GMT
Yeah, I'd go 4-6 too. And I'd take 3 over 7, but 7 over 2.
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 1:57:22 GMT
Comparing 2 and 7 are pretty tough. They're just different, I love them both for different reasons.
2 has "the deal" and "the chinese restaurant" (two of the best episodes ever), and then "the revenge", "the babyshower", "the phone message", and "the pony remark" are just so damn classic.
7 has the some of the best episodes from the show but also some of the worst, imo.
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 2:04:23 GMT
Hmm. I forgot "The Revenge" was in season 2.
"Oh, I see, so you have a licence to steal. You are like the James Bond of dry cleaning."
"If only you could put your mind to something worthwhile. You're like Lex Luthor!"
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 2:07:17 GMT
One of my favourite scenes:
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 2:14:42 GMT
Here's another priceless clip from "the revenge." After insulting his boss and quitting his job, George comes up with the idea just to walk in and act like nothing ever happened. lol Seinfeld - The Revengewww.youtube.com/watch?v=jlIMmuMQozc"Ah, she's gonna be a fine sailor!"
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Post by RNL on Jul 5, 2008 2:17:23 GMT
"Dan, don't I joke around all the time?"
"I wouldn't say all the time."
;D
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Post by Robert C. on Jul 5, 2008 2:23:59 GMT
..."Is that COSTANZA over there?" ;D
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