RNL
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Post by RNL on Aug 22, 2009 2:55:02 GMT
Am I to take it that the answer to this question is yes? Is this the point that's been proven? It's okay if you're not arsed responding, but telling me I've proven your points by rebutting them is only good for a chuckle. Honestly, pull the other one.
Mirror actually provides a lot of social context. It's all very much--certainly sufficiently--historically grounded. The last thing it tries to do is unmoor itself from history and society. Where'd you get that idea?
Yes, I do get bored of talking and analysing and 'dissecting'. I do find it rewarding and enjoyable too though. Mostly I'm just too lazy to bother. You motivate me, maaan.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 22, 2009 6:49:56 GMT
Mirror actually provides a lot of social context. It's all very much--certainly sufficiently--historically grounded. The last thing it tries to do is unmoor itself from history and society. Where'd you get that idea? How can I take naturally a movie called Mirror seriously? What kind of an artwork is this? Why not something less bland? I can't grant legitimacy to something others already do. ;D Yes, I do get bored of talking and analysing and 'dissecting'. I do find it rewarding and enjoyable too though. Mostly I'm just too lazy to bother. You motivate me, maaan. Bitch, I'm your cattle prod.
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Post by quentincompson on Aug 22, 2009 10:43:44 GMT
Of course they do, by making me feel a connection with all humanity from certain universal conditions of human existence. I see a representation of characters going through "grief" even if it is different than my own, I can still connect and reflect upon my place in the world and what it is to be human. I'm not really sure what else you want.
I hope you truly don't mean to be offensive but you have a way of adopting a tone in your writings that assumes you are already right, at least IMO, so I'm not really sure if you're ever really considering my arguments or just thinking of ways to dismiss them.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Aug 22, 2009 11:08:51 GMT
But the "opposite" of the "already right" tone is just to put "IMO" after everything, in order to somehow legitimise it as an "omg everything is relative" sort of thing.
If we're not striving toward objectivity, our differences in opinion aren't worth exchanging.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Aug 22, 2009 15:45:43 GMT
Of course they do, by making me feel a connection with all humanity from certain universal conditions of human existence. I see a representation of characters going through "grief" even if it is different than my own, I can still connect and reflect upon my place in the world and what it is to be human. I'm not really sure what else you want. Ignoring the slightly mystical implications in feeling a "connection with all humanity", I find it doubtful that it's a very substantive connection, if it's really always an end in itself - all about providing you with the sensations of that 'connection'. Do we actually seek out sensations of empathy as a means of self-gratification? You've already said you don't care about the reality that the drama represents, you only care about its ability to service you emotionally. It's all about you and your place in the world? "What it is to be human" is not the same for everybody, above the level of basic biological functions and truisms like mortality, it's different in all the ways that matter. Suggesting otherwise indicates a deep complacency about the state of the world and the people in it. You're not sure what else I want? I don't understand how you wouldn't want much more. Dramatic portrayals of human experience that are derived from sensitive and incisive observations of real human life, that retain their complexity and relevence when rendered dramatically, and which are not fatuously reduced to facile essentialisms and universalisms and truisms that can tell us little to nothing about life in the world. For starters... I truly don't mean to be offensive. Obviously I do believe I'm right, otherwise why would I be spending my time making the argument? I give your arguments the consideration necessary to see that they're unsound. It's not like I'm unfamiliar with your way of thinking on this issue anyway, since a) it's very popular, and b) once upon a time I would've been on your side.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Aug 22, 2009 15:57:55 GMT
Also, could you please be more specific with reference to these "certain universal conditions of human existence"? What are they exactly?
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Post by svsg on Aug 22, 2009 21:24:52 GMT
For once I agree with wetdog that removing the social context of the characters (apparently as with Antichrist, going by wetdog's description) serves little in terms of understanding their condition.
BTW, I take objection to "middle class cinemaphile elite". As though the other classes are somehow above mediocrity by definition?? But that is off-topic...
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Aug 22, 2009 21:39:36 GMT
The 'cinephile' elite is overwhelmingly middle-class. Their class background is crucial to any understanding of their cultural values.
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Jenson71
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Post by Jenson71 on Aug 23, 2009 20:59:45 GMT
But the "opposite" of the "already right" tone is just to put "IMO" after everything, in order to somehow legitimise it as an "omg everything is relative" sort of thing. If we're not striving toward objectivity, our differences in opinion aren't worth exchanging. Well that's your opinion.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Aug 23, 2009 21:16:36 GMT
Haha, and one that happens to be irrefutable, really.
Unless all you're after is exchanging opinions without any further investigative analysis; which seems to result in holding the film itself in very low esteem, and which may as well be a brief exchange of shoe sizes.
A: "I like this film, it is very good. [Insert optional list of reasons.]" B: "I don't like this film, it isn't very good. [Insert optional list of reasons.]"
(or)
A: "I'm a size 10." B: "Really? Ah, I'm a size 8."
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Jenson71
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Post by Jenson71 on Aug 23, 2009 21:28:32 GMT
Mostly I was joking, but now do you really believe we should just strive towards objectivity or do you really believe that every work of art should be viewed by every single person the exact same? Or both?
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Aug 23, 2009 21:35:14 GMT
I think the second is the inevitable objective of the first; it needs to be, if art discussion is to be of any real worth. But so long as the discussion is fruitful, and that everybody is open to it, I think I'd be content (for now) that the objective is somewhat unattainable. It should be an ongoing process.
What we like and dislike about a work of art is always going to come down to 'personal preference' (and this kind of discussion may be reduced to likes/dislikes; shots, acting, etc.), but I really think we ought to set out with one collective idea as to what is objectively 'worthy'.
That isn't to say that would put an end to discussion as to what was 'worthy'.
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Jenson71
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Post by Jenson71 on Aug 23, 2009 21:55:32 GMT
That sounds like a great proposal.
Ninja midgets is worthy to me. That's my vote. And frankly, I'm disgusted with Western Civilization's total neglection of ninja midgets in art. The good news is there's a lot of greatness untapped still in the genre.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 23, 2009 21:59:40 GMT
The 'cinephile' elite is overwhelmingly middle-class. Their class background is crucial to any understanding of their cultural values. I'm glad we members of the middle class can completely agree! ;D
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Aug 23, 2009 22:04:40 GMT
I'm not exempting myself from these criticisms Ronnie. As I said, I'm making "an observation about systemic pressures exerted on those of a particular social class to develop certain cultural values." Those pressures have exerted themselves on me too, "but of course consiousness of these pressures is a precondition for resistance of them."
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 23, 2009 22:11:07 GMT
I'm not exempting myself from these criticisms Ronnie. uhuh As I said, I'm making "an observation about systemic pressures exerted on those of a particular social class to develop certain cultural values." That's called the melodrama. Those pressures have exerted themselves on me too, "but of course consiousness of these pressures is a precondition for resistance of them." Why all of a sudden I'm reminded of that terrific scene from REDS? " So that's what people in the Village want to read about now?"
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Post by svsg on Aug 23, 2009 22:21:40 GMT
That sounds like a great proposal. Ninja midgets is worthy to me. That's my vote. And frankly, I'm disgusted with Western Civilization's total neglection of ninja midgets in art. The good news is there's a lot of greatness untapped still in the genre. ROFL
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Aug 23, 2009 22:24:07 GMT
As I said, I'm making "an observation about systemic pressures exerted on those of a particular social class to develop certain cultural values." That's called the melodrama. Those pressures have exerted themselves on me too, "but of course consiousness of these pressures is a precondition for resistance of them." Why all of a sudden I'm reminded of that terrific scene from REDS? " So that's what people in the Village want to read about now?" Why are your posts all unfunny non-sequiturs and ambiguous film references?
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 23, 2009 22:30:33 GMT
Why are you irrelevant, and get quagmired in pissy pointless debates without my help? Babe, you complete me.
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Post by Michael on Aug 23, 2009 22:42:21 GMT
That's called the melodrama. Why all of a sudden I'm reminded of that terrific scene from REDS? " So that's what people in the Village want to read about now?" Why are your posts all unfunny non-sequiturs and ambiguous film references? LMAO!!!
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