RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 23, 2009 23:07:40 GMT
O no Im irrelevant halp.
I actually get a fair bit of amusement out of the fact that I called you out a few times on making irrelevant points in arguments and now it's like your favourite word.
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Jenson71
Ghost writer
Bush is watching you
Posts: 810
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Post by Jenson71 on Aug 23, 2009 23:26:01 GMT
You two are running towards a violent fistfight that ends up in a night of unbridled passionate sex featuring Capo's kabob sticks.
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RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 23, 2009 23:52:00 GMT
I would tear that ass up. Eatitup.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 24, 2009 0:02:23 GMT
RNL, you complete me.
Now did you get that reference? PM me if you didn't, I'll help my Irish brother out.
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Post by quentincompson on Aug 24, 2009 16:10:08 GMT
Also, could you please be more specific with reference to these "certain universal conditions of human existence"? What are they exactly? I was just using the films example of grief but anything else like this which you would probably just dismiss as vague; love,suffering,empathy etc. But how is Mother and Son not derived from real human life?(since I haven't see Anti-Christ) Has not Sokurov seen tons of instances of human love, or the bond between family members? Is something fictional less real because it occurs out in the woods then if it occurs in a city? And if you care to answer my question about what you do when you have an emotional response to a film(assuming you do) I remained intrigued, because at least to me it seems incredibly silly to deny these feelings when evaluating a film as if they did not occur.
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Post by quentincompson on Aug 25, 2009 7:29:44 GMT
Also how does this view apply to music(or other mediums) or a film like Drag Me to Hell of which you gave 4 stars I believe recently.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 25, 2009 22:24:50 GMT
RNL took a movie about gypsy witches and zombies seriously?
*Shakes my head*
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RNL
Global Moderator
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Post by RNL on Aug 30, 2009 19:09:52 GMT
I was just using the films example of grief but anything else like this which you would probably just dismiss as vague; love,suffering,empathy etc. Yeah. No, and that's precisely my point. Sokurov's misconception is the opposite; he believes that it's more real, that it's more 'essential', 'elemental', yaddayadda. It's not, they're just two people in the woods with their life details kept as vague as possible, in order to make them more 'universal'. But of course, what's universally true of people more than anything else? They live individual lives. Take that away and you're left basically nothing to talk about, you've left yourself nothing substantive upon which to comment, nothing real to dramatise. Mother & Son is derived from real human life, but it does not retain its complexities, it strips them away in an apparent attempt to comment on the 'Love' between a 'Mother' and a 'Son' when confronted with 'Grief' and 'Death', and so on. I'm not exempting myself from these criticisms. I found Mother & Son very moving when I first saw it, and I felt completely sympathetic to what Sokurov was trying to do and considered it legitimate. Now I don't, and that changed understanding of the film results in a changed emotional response to it. The emotional response is different. But it's no moreso a result of my understanding of the film now than it was when I was in tune with Sokurov's values and approach. My evaluation of the film isn't as positive now as it was before.
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RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 30, 2009 19:20:57 GMT
Also how does this view apply to music(or other mediums) or a film like Drag Me to Hell of which you gave 4 stars I believe recently. This doesn't apply to music itself to any great extent, though it's entirely relevant when we discuss lyrics (poetry). Drag Me to Hell is an enormous amount of fun and exceptionally well-made. It's not, however, a serious film. That said, I actually think the plot hook offers more critical insight into real life than anything in Mother & Son or Antichrist. The protagonist Christine is subjected to systemic pressures to abandon her sense of compassion and empathy and deny the elderly woman an extension on her mortage payments, which leaves her homeless. She's told by her boss that she has to learn to "make the tough decisions" if she's going to succeed in her career. A clear and cogent indictment of the profit system, engaging far more directly and critically with real human life than anything in Sokurov's film. Thereafter the film develops along generic (and very ethnically insensitive) lines exploring themes of occult mysticism, demonology, hexes, etc, becoming the "spook-a-blast" Raimi intended it to be.
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RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 30, 2009 19:22:34 GMT
RNL took a movie about gypsy witches and zombies seriously? *Shakes my head* I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're trying to antagonise me, because for you to still not understand this simple distinction between seriousness and unseriousness at this point would just be too sad.
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Post by quentincompson on Aug 31, 2009 14:21:01 GMT
I thought that would be your answer, but is this not a case of picking and choosing some self-serving art like music w/out lyrics and non-serious narratives for entertainment purposes? How does your desire for being entertained supercede my desire for dramatic stimulation(assuming that were my stance)?
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 31, 2009 16:36:59 GMT
Is ANTICHRIST worth watching or not?
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RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 31, 2009 16:45:59 GMT
I thought that would be your answer, but is this not a case of picking and choosing some self-serving art like music w/out lyrics and non-serious narratives for entertainment purposes? How does your desire for being entertained supercede my desire for dramatic stimulation(assuming that were my stance)? It doesn't, they're equally unserious. You, however, take Mother & Son seriously, I don't take it, or Drag Me to Hell, seriously. And I never said music was self-serving. The creation of beautiful things is to be celebrated in itself, it's obviously socially valuable. The problem with concentrating only on the creation of beautiful images in cinema is that the images are representational, in a dramatic-narrative context. In certain mediums an understanding of history and society is more important than in others.
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RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 31, 2009 16:46:44 GMT
Is ANTICHRIST worth watching or not? Yes, but mostly due to its notoriety.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Aug 31, 2009 19:42:05 GMT
So you saying its a good if naughty movie, or a bad movie that's naughty?
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RNL
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,624
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Post by RNL on Aug 31, 2009 19:51:41 GMT
I saying neither.
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Post by svsg on Aug 31, 2009 20:06:22 GMT
In certain mediums an understanding of history and society is more important than in others. Please elaborate, I find this statement interesting.
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RNL
Global Moderator
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Post by RNL on Aug 31, 2009 20:33:16 GMT
Working in dramatic-narrative mediums like cinema, theatre, etc, where human life is represented concretely, places necessary demands on the dramatist that the concrete complexities of human life be understood as much as possible. It's less pivotal, less make-or-break, for poets or painters. Less again for musicians or dancers or whatever. That said, it's obviously never a liability for an artist to understand as much as possible about life.
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Post by Michael on Sept 1, 2009 1:28:51 GMT
;D
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Post by Anasazie on Sept 1, 2009 2:20:20 GMT
My god you guys are still going! Is ANTICHRIST worth watching or not? YES....and not for it's notoriety, i think it's notoreity is waaayyy over the top! I did not find the film shocking personally.
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