RNL
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Post by RNL on Jul 10, 2008 0:28:13 GMT
Some initial thoughts:
The film is a morality tale that naively reduces the subject of morality to a matter of Catholic doctrine, and a 'love thine enemy' parable of personal sacrifice that uncomprehendingly (and even lasciviously, if we're being honest) observes a variety of social ills through the absolute narrowest lens imaginable (figuratively speaking), presuming apparently that the mere existence of those conditions constitutes an argument for the rightness and redemptive value of the final actions taken by the Lieutenant.
Aside from that presumption being clearly unfounded--and certainly a world away from truism--for anyone at all disinclined to unquestioningly accept Catholic dogma, the film, as a morality play, is fatally flawed. We know nothing about the character's past, and only superficial details of his present. Tellingly we don't even hear his name. We're not given any indication that he's tortured with guilt about his actions, or that he's seriously conflicted about his faith. All we know is that he's 'bad'. And why is he 'bad'? He's 'bad' because he 'sins'. The film's moral focus really is no wider than that. And how could it be with absolutely no sense of the who and the why of the character and his actions? It can't be. You can't talk about morality without talking about who the moral agent is and why he acts the way he does. But that's what Ferrara & co. are trying to do. In lieu of complex social context, they look to the moral doctrine of the Catholic Church (ironic, since the abuse of authority is another way in which the Lieutenant is established as being 'bad', and the potential for mass subjugation and control obviously played no small part in the affectation of the particular values of that institution; "a racket" he himself calls it at one point). So the film's plot consists of a litany of 'sinful' acts. It's like a dramatisation of the tagline ("Gambler. Thief. Junkie. Killer. Cop."). But the Catholic concept of sin is just an institutionalisation of a certain set of moral values. The Church doesn't have a monopoly on the concepts of redemption or sacrifice. The Lieutenant states a few times, with knowing irony, that he's "a Catholic". There's absolutely no characterisation beyond this. But the rape of a young nun, her forgiveness of her attackers, and her protection of their identities apparently jars the Lieutenant into some kind of tortured rapture during which he literally speaks to Christ. It's supposed to be a tremendous, cathartic moment, but the character's spontaneous metamorphosis is more bizarre and puzzling than anything.
It's hard to even talk about the film, it's so vacuous. Is there a widespread moral crisis? Is there institutionalised sociopathy? Is there urban alienation? Why? From where? What to do? Are these serious questions? Or will a vague and presumptuous Christian parable suffice? Ferrara doesn't seem to see the forest for the trees, and I think the film is an expression of an exclusively Catholic angst.
Mary is a far more considerate film with much of the same concerns.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Jul 10, 2008 12:22:07 GMT
Write more, when you watch.
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Post by svsg on Dec 8, 2008 3:16:00 GMT
Some initial thoughts: The film is a morality tale that naively reduces the subject of morality to a matter of Catholic doctrine, and a 'love thine enemy' parable of personal sacrifice that uncomprehendingly (and even lasciviously, if we're being honest) observes a variety of social ills through the absolute narrowest lens imaginable (figuratively speaking), presuming apparently that the mere existence of those conditions constitutes an argument for the rightness and redemptive value of the final actions taken by the Lieutenant. The longest sentence ever constructed in human history
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Post by ronnierocketago on Dec 8, 2008 3:24:20 GMT
I believe it was Entertainment Weekly that praised/slapped Ferrera as "having as much passion for film and Catholic morality jeopardy as Scorsese, but not the skill or talent."
Yet BAD LIEUTENANT is something that in another reality Scorsese would have shot (hell, his development hell project SILENCE is itself another Catholic crisis drama), but since he didn't, Ferrera with his brutal blunt minimalist fashion is willing to ask difficult questions that most people of supposed Christianist America is unwilling to ask, and even fewer unwilling to act as Harvey Keitel does in the finale.
Plus, remember when we considered Keitel as a great actor? With recent garbage payjobs like NATIONAL TREASURE, its hard to remember when he was fucking legendary in MEAN STREETS.
Been too long for me to give a fair review, but my rating at the time I believe was ****1/2
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Dec 8, 2008 3:46:20 GMT
Some initial thoughts: The film is a morality tale that naively reduces the subject of morality to a matter of Catholic doctrine, and a 'love thine enemy' parable of personal sacrifice that uncomprehendingly (and even lasciviously, if we're being honest) observes a variety of social ills through the absolute narrowest lens imaginable (figuratively speaking), presuming apparently that the mere existence of those conditions constitutes an argument for the rightness and redemptive value of the final actions taken by the Lieutenant. The longest sentence ever constructed in human history Haha! I keep getting notes on my essays saying "break into two sentences"! ;D
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Dec 8, 2008 3:47:46 GMT
Ferrera with his brutal blunt minimalist fashion is willing to ask difficult questions that most people of supposed Christianist America is unwilling to ask What questions?
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Post by ronnierocketago on Dec 14, 2008 1:29:44 GMT
Ferrera with his brutal blunt minimalist fashion is willing to ask difficult questions that most people of supposed Christianist America is unwilling to ask What questions? For example, how can a nun forgive her rapists? I mean that basic question is what drives that drama.
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Post by arkadyrenko on Jan 16, 2009 20:14:56 GMT
BAD LIEUTENANT is the kind of movie that goesn't give a shit what you will think of it. and if it knew what you think of it, it would mock you.
Which means, i have to respect that kind of attitute. This is what real hard ass case movies are all really about, and not that pouncy limp-wristed lameness of THE ROCK.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Jan 16, 2009 22:01:03 GMT
BAD LIEUTENANT is the kind of movie that goesn't give a shit what you will think of it. and if it knew what you think of it, it would mock you. Which means, i have to respect that kind of attitute. This is what real hard ass case movies are all really about, and not that pouncy limp-wristed lameness of THE ROCK. Well that attitude can be nice at times, and also can lead to SOUTHLAND TALES. It's just Ferrera/Keitel knew what the fuck they were doing with LIEUTENANT, and fuck anyone that would be bothered by it. Blibbleblabble or svsg or Omar or somebody had a thread once somewhere about movies that went "all the way." BAD LIEUTENANT is one of them.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Jan 16, 2009 22:32:49 GMT
It could've gone a lot farther. Like, into the psychological and social questions that are inextricably part of any moral questions.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Jan 16, 2009 22:56:59 GMT
It could've gone a lot farther. Like, into the psychological and social questions that are inextricably part of any moral questions. Like? What I dont get with you RNL is, you're from Ireland. And last I checked, thats a pretty fucking Catholic culture. Irish and Catholic can't escape each other (unless you're protestant Unionist from up North) but otherwise, BAD LIEUTENANT is basically what Scorsese could have wanted to do at one time or another, or a Catholic self-guilt exploration morality play.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Jan 16, 2009 23:18:41 GMT
It could've gone a lot farther. Like, into the psychological and social questions that are inextricably part of any moral questions. Like? Yeah, that's the question: what are the psychological and social questions? Because they DO exist. There's no such thing as an ahistorical, asocial, apsychological moral crisis. The film goes nowhere near these questions. Your point? Yes, Ireland is a predominantly Catholic country and is steeped in Catholic culture and a history of often violent interdenominational conflict. And, AS SUCH, I wouldn't ever presume to try to make a film exploring the idea of Catholic guilt while ignoring these basic and obvious truths. Unlike Ferrara, who attempts to do exactly that; to make a morality play sans any kind of social analysis. The idea of Catholic angst floating free from history is absurd. It's a deadend.
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Post by arkadyrenko on Jan 17, 2009 11:17:43 GMT
I think there's more catholic angst in countries like USA then there is traditionally catholic counties like RNL's Ireland or in Spain, France, Italy, etc. The reason being, they are more relaxed to their own catholicism because they take it for granted, as they would.
In america, i see the catholics there live a form of siege mentality, a grounp surrounded by a majority of other type of christians, protestants. as such, i seem they are more eager to find a form of self-identity, which causes that kind of angst, something that the european catholics from traditional cathllic countries feel no stress about.
In many ways, american catholics are like japanese catholics. There's quite a lot of similiaritude between them and their way of trying to self-assert. Little suprise, they both are what i call "siege catholicism".
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Post by arkadyrenko on Jan 17, 2009 11:24:59 GMT
And by the way, i think that BAD LIEUTENANT is dead on on what should be like for a true and real act of following Jesus teachings about the forgiveness of others' sins and our own. The "forgive those who done wrong to you" stuff is not just about the people you borrow a brush and they return it with paint still one, unwashed. No, it's about forgiving those who have wrong you, as in, very wrong.
This is what happens to 3 characters in this movie, the titular Bad Lieutenant and the two crackheads nun rapists. The nun does the very christian thing of forgiving them for their sin and wrong to her. She is performing true christianism, as dictated by the so-called founder of the religion. The lieutenent inicially can't udnerstand this, he thinks, like most christians seem to think, that redemption cames from revenge. But the nun teachs him a true christian lesson. and by the end, the lieutenant learns the harder lesson, learns to do what christianity truly demands form people, but which rarely any can understand and perform, to forgive the wrongdoers and allow them a chance of redemption. To help OTHERS redempt, instead of themselves only. That's the kind of true christian attitude that rarely is seen from so-called christians, and not find at all in CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM, the sewer of christianisty.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Jan 17, 2009 16:03:57 GMT
I think there's more catholic angst in countries like USA then there is traditionally catholic counties like RNL's Ireland or in Spain, France, Italy, etc. The reason being, they are more relaxed to their own catholicism because they take it for granted, as they would. In america, i see the catholics there live a form of siege mentality, a grounp surrounded by a majority of other type of christians, protestants. as such, i seem they are more eager to find a form of self-identity, which causes that kind of angst, something that the european catholics from traditional cathllic countries feel no stress about. In many ways, american catholics are like japanese catholics. There's quite a lot of similiaritude between them and their way of trying to self-assert. Little suprise, they both are what i call "siege catholicism". Social contexts ignored by Ferrara.
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Post by arkadyrenko on Jan 17, 2009 17:53:33 GMT
I'd be too sure if Ferarra ignorare the social context, And even if he did, the social context wouldn't mean much for the story he told in the movie, which was basically a character study of the Bad Lieutenant, while at the same time showing the very exact notion what true christian forgiveness and redemption actually means. So, in this regar,d the social context is hardly important other then to present what kind of people the rapists are and what kind of world the Bad Lieutenant lived and worked on.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Jan 17, 2009 18:15:46 GMT
Yeah, so, like I said in my first post, it's a vague Christian parable. See that post for my opinion of why that doesn't suffice.
It's not a character study, because an analysis of an individual's relationship to Christianity, to its traditions, teachings and institutions, would necessarily be a psychological analysis, and since human psychology doesn't spring fully formed from the aether, it would necessarily demand a material analysis of the character's past and the social-historical determinants of that psychological relationship. As it stands, the unnamed, undeveloped, uncontextualised Bad Lieutenant character's lapsed Christianity floats free from history, and so the object of the study, if indeed it's intended to be a study, is immaterial, and therefore the study can't yield enlightening results.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Jan 17, 2009 18:17:12 GMT
I think there's more catholic angst in countries like USA then there is traditionally catholic counties like RNL's Ireland or in Spain, France, Italy, etc. The reason being, they are more relaxed to their own catholicism because they take it for granted, as they would. In america, i see the catholics there live a form of siege mentality, a grounp surrounded by a majority of other type of christians, protestants. as such, i seem they are more eager to find a form of self-identity, which causes that kind of angst, something that the european catholics from traditional cathllic countries feel no stress about. In many ways, american catholics are like japanese catholics. There's quite a lot of similiaritude between them and their way of trying to self-assert. Little suprise, they both are what i call "siege catholicism". Social contexts ignored by Ferrara. Didn't you sometime back also say that IRON MAN was Dubya jingoism?
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Jan 17, 2009 18:36:50 GMT
Since you know I did you're obviously implying some inconsistency in my arguments, but I'm afraid you'll have to spell it out for me.
And actually what I said was its ideological slant is a clear product of bourgeois Hollywood liberalism; jingoism isn't reserved for the neocons, it's just jingoism of a different stripe. The entire concept of the "War on Terror" is jingoistic. But do this in the other thread, it has nothing to do with Bad Lieutenant.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Jan 17, 2009 19:39:40 GMT
Since you know I did you're obviously implying some inconsistency in my arguments, but I'm afraid you'll have to spell it out for me. And actually what I said was its ideological slant is a clear product of bourgeois Hollywood liberalism; jingoism isn't reserved for the neocons, it's just jingoism of a different stripe. The entire concept of the "War on Terror" is jingoistic. But do this in the other thread, it has nothing to do with Bad Lieutenant. I only brought it up for Arkady's eyes (since he's a European too and he liked IRON MAN) ;D But I must say RNL, you actually finally made sense to me your problem with MAN.
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