Omar
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Post by Omar on Jan 31, 2008 17:25:48 GMT
SpoilersDo you guys think that Daniel really did know that Paul and Eli were twin brothers? It's possible that when Daniel was teasing Eli about Paul's success that he thought Eli had split personalities or was mentally sick or something. Do you guys think that Daniel loved H.W.? I say, hell yes. The picture that Daniel found in the diary/journal that Henry (can't remember his real name) was of who do you think? H.W. was skeptical about Henry because of the newspaper clipping of guns he found in the diary? I found it odd that Daniel hid his face with the napkin to hid what he was saying to the Standard Oil guy so that H.W. couldn't read his lips or his facial expressions. Shouldn't Daniel let H.W. know that Daniel cares about him? (Even if the Standard Oil guy didn't really tell Daniel how to raise H.W. LOL.) When Daniel sent H.W. away, do you guys think he sent him to a school for the deaf or boarding school w/ the intent of leaving him there at first? I've read that in the script, Daniel admitted he's impotent. Are you guys reading the film as a parable or allegory? End Spoilers SpoilersThis is a lot to respond to you. I agree with your reasoning behind Daniel killing Eli. A friend of mine who just saw it hated the ending and said it came out of nowhere. I think it comes perfectly in order of Daniel's disintegration. But anyway.... I've read many theories saying that Eli and Paul are the same person, and personally, I find this harder to buy than the drunken delusion finale. I think at first Daniel didn't understand they were twins, but soon realized. I'm not really sure. Anderson leaves a lot of it open and mysterious as hell. Yes, I do think Daniel loved H.W. all along, even when he abandons him. I can't recall the moment when Daniel finds a picture in the diary? Was it right before he kills Henry? Perhaps it was evidence that he was an impostor. I don't think H.W. could read the diary, or at all. Wasn't he holding it upside down? I think, from a child's perspective, he was confused by his deafness and felt even more alienated when this mysterious man (Henry) came into his father's life and started getting all of the attention. Notice that when he started the fire, it led right to Henry's bed. The scene in the restaurant was one of the strangest scenes in the film. I didn't know why he put the napkin over his face, but the lip reading thing makes sense. I'm not sure. I just thought he was pissed because they were getting faster service. I think he sent him to a school for the deaf. He seemed really happy when he returned. The scene where he sends him away on the train was incredible. I've also read about Daniel's impotence. It makes sense. And I'm reading it as a parable. Many have called it a film about the evils of capitalism and religion, but I think it's more about the evils of man, one man in particular. And yes, definitely in the category of "The Godfather" and "Citizen Kane".
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Omar
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Post by Omar on Jan 31, 2008 17:27:29 GMT
Doesn't all need to be about madness and death to be great. Well no shit. That doesn't mean it's a masterpiece.
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Omar
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Post by Omar on Jan 31, 2008 17:29:46 GMT
Look at it this way. More tickets sold means suits will be more willing to financially back a PTA picture in the future. It took PTA 2 years to find the $25 million to make TWBB and PTA's own former agent is an executive at Paramount Vantage that financed the movie! Why is dreck like Meet The Spartans always being made, and why is stuff like TWBB rare? Or, why did Zodiac get shitted on got released in the wasteland of March when it won't be remembered come awards season? If you're or anybody is unhappy w/ movie studio decisions, you let it be known not by talking about movies on messageboards or over coffee w/ your friends, but by helping the movie that you support (and would like to see more of) by helping its financial bottom line. Executives follow the money. If Zodiac, TWBB, NCFOM, Requiem for a Dream ruled the box office and not Meet the Spartans, Scary Movie 58, or uninspired sequels and remakes, then we'd see more ballsy and just plain great American movies. I was glad to pay to see TWBB three times b/c I'm doing my part to help change the movie landscape. Same thing w/ radio and tv. This is the best post you have ever written (except for "The Wire" recommendations), and I agree with everything here. Film ethics that all of us should go by.
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Post by Mike Sullivan on Jan 31, 2008 21:31:39 GMT
Doesn't all need to be about madness and death to be great. Well no shit. That doesn't mean it's a masterpiece. But it seems to me that the films that critics and film buffs resond to the most are usually the darker films. A film like Juno is refreshing in its originality and humanity but it's not as highly regarded as say, TWBB.
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jrod
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Post by jrod on Jan 31, 2008 21:35:43 GMT
When NCFOM and TWBB ended, I heard 3 or 4 people talking about how stupid the ending was (for each movie), and was instantly glad I wasn't riding home with any of them. Following that, even if the person Im with DOES have the potential to enjoy a deeper film, I want to think about it on my own for awhile afterwards. So while I support better films by seeing them, Im supporting the likes of Spiderman 3, Bourne Ultimatium, and Juno a lot more...because Im inviting a group of friends or a date to those ones. I don't think I have any friends that would see Meet the Spartans in the theatre, so at least thats a plus
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Feb 1, 2008 4:04:30 GMT
On silly responses to films amongst the collective audience, I went to see Atonement tonight with a theatre full of students, and seriously, you would not believe the amount of laughter early on regarding the "CUNT" close-up, the part where Robbie realises he's given Briony the wrong letter and the part where the Briony finds Robbie and Cecilia having sex. Like, serious bellows from everyone. It was like being in year five again having sex education for the first time. I felt very sad and alienated.
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RNL
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Post by RNL on Feb 1, 2008 4:09:35 GMT
That "C - U - N - T" bit on the typewriter was pretty funny though... it's way out of left field, doesn't fit the milieu at all. And the presentation reminded me of Thug complaining about the "S - K - U - L - L" in King Kong.
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Kino
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Post by Kino on Feb 1, 2008 4:44:14 GMT
Spoilers in my entire postThis is a lot to respond to you. I agree with your reasoning behind Daniel killing Eli. A friend of mine who just saw it hated the ending and said it came out of nowhere. I think it comes perfectly in order of Daniel's disintegration. But anyway.... It's surprising how many people feel the ending doesn't fit or is such an abrupt shift, or came out of nowhere. I'm sure if they watch the movie again they'll see it's not an outlandish arc for his character. I mean, he did murder someone earlier. LOL. FYI: Dano replaced the actor originally playing Eli Sunday a couple of weeks into filming. Rumor is 'cause dude was intimated about acting w/ Day-Lewis and his performance suffered. He read the diary and saw the photograph at his campfire after burying Henry. It was a pic of a young child. Couldn't tell if it was a boy (Daniel or his alleged brother) or maybe a pic of Daniel's sister or mother. You're right. The diary was upside down, but the newspaper clipping, I believe, was an ad for rifles and there were like a bunch of rifles (at least 4) pictured. I'm wondering if that's what made H.W.'s distrust of Henry other than other fears he may have had. That's what I thought, too, but a little doubt creeped in thinking maybe the perspective from that camera angle skewed perspective a bit. His competitive nature gave yet another fine comedic moment - Daniel going up and getting the drinks from the counter himself and telling the waiter that they ordered first! LOL. I didn't see it coming (Daniel tricking H.W.) on the first viewing. I'd be lying if I said I didn't well up each time I see H.W. scream for Daniel and Daniel's expression.
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Kino
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Post by Kino on Feb 1, 2008 4:47:53 GMT
This is the best post you have ever written (except for "The Wire" recommendations), and I agree with everything here. Film ethics that all of us should go by. Thanks. It means a lot considering it wasn't long-winded compared to my past posts. (Well, at least to me.) Trying to work on brevity. Oh yeah, that post only applies if one has disposable income. Life is much more important than art. Speaking of The Wire....
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Blib
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Post by Blib on Feb 1, 2008 5:07:42 GMT
I want to read these spoilers so bad! I think I'm seeing it the weekend after next. I hope.
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Jenson71
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Post by Jenson71 on Feb 1, 2008 22:58:05 GMT
I saw it today and the reel that had the explosion and H.W. losing his hearing and Eli going crazy was upside down and backwards. So I missed all of that. I got a free ticket and will probably see it again.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Feb 11, 2008 22:22:03 GMT
I saw it today and the reel that had the explosion and H.W. losing his hearing and Eli going crazy was upside down and backwards. So I missed all of that. I got a free ticket and will probably see it again. Just as Daniel is carrying H.W. away from the derrick the reel cut out and we had to sit in the dark for five minutes or so. It's such an immersive scene, though; didn't affect my rhythm much at all. Great film. I saw a free preview tonight, so I'm definitely seeing it again soon.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Feb 11, 2008 22:53:00 GMT
Some initial thoughts on some things I found significant (SPOILERS):
In the opening and closing shots, Day-Lewis's face can't be seen (because of darkness down a well or because he has his back to camera).
Plainview's first and last words in the film are "off-camera" (the first are cross-cut from an adjoining scene, the last words he has his back to camera).
Sinclair's novel is called Oil! So, then, what is the significance of the film's title? Whose blood is there going to be; and how (and why)? Note that, even though Plainview murders Henry, the only blood we see inflicted by somebody else is at the very end (all other blood comes by accidents in the rigging). I liked the subtle gestures of oil seeping out of the ground and the blood trickling from Eli's head in the climax.
I don't buy the finale as a dream or drunken delusion. I think the narrative puts too much emphasis on Eli's surmons, on Plainview's scepticism towards them (and again, the significance of the title) for it to all be an illusion.
Themes of 'brotherhood' - both literal and religious. Henry as a brother to Daniel, Eli as a brother to Paul, Eli as a brother to H.W. (?); Eli, too, as a "brother" to Daniel.
From that, similiarly, the theme of 'fatherhood'. Daniel to H.W., Daniel to Eli (?), and the inclusion of scenes with other secondary characters (Bandy and his son, Eli and his father). Note, too, the reaction Daniel has when somebody suggets he take care of his son.
From both of the last two points comes my last: acting, or falsehood; being a fraud. Eli as a "false prophet"; Henry as a fake brother; Daniel as a false father (and therefore H.W. as a misled son). I find it significant, with this in mind, that we should come back to my first point in this post: Plainview begins and ends the film without us seeing his face; and throughout, in between, there are many moments where his face is either covered (whether by napkin or due to lying down in his barn or on the bowling alley with his back to camera) or barely discernible (the orange, oil-drenched "floating head" in the exploding derrick scene, or during his misanthropic speech to Henry).
One final thought: in existentialist terms, H.W. is perhaps the only character who isn't acting in bad faith. He's the only genuine one of the lot, and the one with the least dialogue, which I too find very significant. Daniel says in all his glorious rhetoric, "As an oil man I am fond of good old-fashioned plain talking" - which he is, but he's not without his own forged identities...
... which, when he confronts that (admitting he isn't H.W.'s father), sends him overboard; it's a release for him, a release which overcomes his impotence in the form of extreme violence (killing Eli).
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Kino
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Post by Kino on Feb 11, 2008 23:08:25 GMT
( SPOILERS): Plainview's first and last words in the film are "off-camera" (the first are cross-cut from an adjoining scene, the last words he has his back to camera). Actually Plainview's first words come before the one you cite (I assume you're talking about Plainview's dialogue to the townspeople while we still see the shot of Plainview and baby H.W. on the train?), while Plainview is still a silver/gold prospector. Oil is the blood of the land. Blood of the lamb is religious imagery. Eli's blood. Daniel's false blood in Henry. Daniel's adopted blood. The death of Daniel's humanity. Daniel's competition. Daniel's misanthropy. All of 'em. So, tentatively, where does TWBB rank in your '07 top ten?
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Kino
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Post by Kino on Feb 11, 2008 23:08:58 GMT
Oh yeah, what kind of projectionist and prints y'all got? LOL. That's inexcusable.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Feb 11, 2008 23:14:01 GMT
Actually Plainview's first words come before the one you cite (I assume you're talking about Plainview's dialogue to the townspeople while we still see the shot of Plainview and baby H.W. on the train?), while Plainview is still a silver/gold prospector. When he's lying at the bottom of the well with a broken leg? It's just mumbling, really, isn't it? Not sure; I'll decide (as I normally do with those) after a few days. For now, it's in the top four easily, behind the Coens, Fincher and Dominik. Don't get mad. I'm seeing it again.
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Kino
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Post by Kino on Feb 11, 2008 23:32:05 GMT
Actually Plainview's first words come before the one you cite (I assume you're talking about Plainview's dialogue to the townspeople while we still see the shot of Plainview and baby H.W. on the train?), while Plainview is still a silver/gold prospector. When he's lying at the bottom of the well with a broken leg? It's just mumbling, really, isn't it? After Plainview dynamites the spot, when he goes back down and finds silver, he says 2 or 3 times, "There she is." Then, of course, after he falls, he yells out, "Nooooooooooo." Those are literally his first words. You can even fit that into a myriad of interpretive readings or have that lead to an interpetive reading. "There she is" in the beginning is the start of Daniel's descent and when we find him in the end he says, "I'm finished." *Gets light-headed, breathes quickly, blacks out ala Tony Soprano*
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Feb 12, 2008 16:12:16 GMT
For now, it's in the top four easily, behind the Coens, Fincher and Dominik. Scratch that. I woke up through the night dreaming of it, couldn't sleep for thinking of it, and here I am now wishing to see it again. I plead with those who have not seen it not to take my hyperbole too literally - go in expecting good things, but not excellent things. But it's my favourite of 2007.
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Post by ronnierocketago on Feb 16, 2008 18:34:14 GMT
For now, it's in the top four easily, behind the Coens, Fincher and Dominik. Scratch that. I woke up through the night dreaming of it, couldn't sleep for thinking of it, and here I am now wishing to see it again. I plead with those who have not seen it not to take my hyperbole too literally - go in expecting good things, but not excellent things. But it's my favourite of 2007. I hate being an asshole, but Capo.....................why go into a movie with expectations? Positive or Negative expectations I feel prejudice the viewer's mind before he's even seen the movie.....and which distracts from the raw, virgin, pristine honesty of the movie's quality.
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Capo
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Post by Capo on Feb 16, 2008 18:36:18 GMT
True; you know how I feel about overhyping stuff. I just think we're all mature enough on this board to note that it's impossible to go into a film without any sort of expectation, while at the same time note the possibility of being open, and since this is getting rave reviews from everyone on here, I don't want those who've yet to see it to be majorly underwhelmed.
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